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Regarding the raid system

Posted by dragonflarex 
Regarding the raid system
06. January 2020 10:20:49


Dear all,

I am writing this suggestion because throughout the last few months I've observed this as a recurring theme in this server and I think this should be addressed. The issue I am talking about is newbie players and alts abusing the raid system. Especially in the cases of lvl 20-40 raids.

The current system allows new characters in general to be boosted in XP essentially infinitely without any contribution to the raid whatsoever, just by sitting afk in the party. As a result, this becomes a tempting option for new players, as they get picked up by various parties. They get to level up to 40 and beyond without having to even work on their own character, some without even experiencing the game. At this point, they are already used to everything being spoonfed to them by raiding clans, that when they get introduced to the slow pace of grinding, they will most likely get bored and leave the server.

Furthermore, this allows clans to easily abuse this system and level their alts by having 6+ afk chars sitting in party, while 1 orc is soloing the boss. And I know most people will reject this because it affects them negatively, but this is in order to bring back a realistic raiding experience (not use raids as a powerlvling tool). Bear in mind, I have also partaken in this and boosted a few newbies, as well as my own alts like this, so this affects me as well.

So, how to solve this? I wouldn't go so far as to say to make this bannable by any means. I think the better solution would be to implement the following changes to the raid system (especially for 20-40 raids):

  • To receive XP from a raid boss, the character must have contributed to killing that raid, aside from just being in the party (this includes dealing a certain % of dmg to the raids, buffing players during the raid, healing, lifting curses, etc..)
  • To avoid players from restarting to lift possible aggro from the boss, if a certain player leaves the party during the raid, that contribution count resets, meaning that after re-entering the party they would have to contribute again to earn any XP.
  • Players in the party that are not within an 8 lvl range from the boss, should also not receive any XP.

Please, let me know your thoughts on this and feel free to propose new rules regarding this. I know this deviates from the retail client settings but I think improving the game experience takes priority over staying true to the flaws of retail smiling smiley
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
06. January 2020 10:52:32


There is nothing wrong with taking new party players to raid bosses. The bad news is that raid bosses cannot be found, since in 9 out of 10 cases they already end up being killed by lone orcs. Sometimes, these orcs receive buffs from high-level buffers to knock down raid bosses alone to pick up drops from them. Sometimes, several characters of their friends sit next to them, gaining experience, but without touching the raid boss. The main problem of the third Chronicles (C3) is that the balance of Destroyers is violated in them. As a result, arming and dressing the Destroyer as well as possible and draining him about 10 levels, after the vampire’s buff above the first level, you can bring down the Raid Bosses alone with this Destroyer. And some players without conscience take advantage of this. Which almost deprives decent players of the chances to collect a normal party and find raid bosses in it. Is it possible to correct this situation and make the game more interesting and enjoyable for most players? Can! To do this, it is enough to limit all destroyers on the server, the ability to merge more than one level (in case of death). Mr. Administrator, make the skills of all server destroyers corresponding to their CURRENT level plus one level! After that, farming Raid bosses will be possible only by these groups, in which all the characters in the group will participate in the battle! And now 90+% of raid bosses are destroyed by lonely Destroyers ...
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Re: Regarding the raid system
06. January 2020 14:01:35


My intention wasn't to single out Destros in particular, but more like to restrict people from abusing the raid system for XP gain. But if the former is not implementable, yes I would also agree with nerfing them.

If I understood your post correctly, you proposed to limit the amount of levels that a Destro/Orc Raider is allowed to lose in order to retain his skills? Right now, this number is 10 (e.g. an Orc Raider learns Guts at lvl 36 and can use this skill if delevels back to lvl 26). We could certainly decrease this number (at least by half?) to limit their flexibility in terms of soloing certain bosses. However, regarding this, I don't think it's possible to set this as a configuration just for Destros and might have to be general for all classes.

Another option could be increasing Frenzy/Rage cooldown rates. As of this moment, these rates allow even Destros with low enchanted weapons to solo RBs within one buff cycle. This is especially the case when they use daggers with Haste SA, which allows them to burn 3x or more Frenzy+Rage in the span of 15 mins. However, even with this they could still just use Frenzy+Rage beforehand, log out for 10 mins until they refresh, and have double skills at their disposal.

So maybe just decrease the P.Atk multiplier for these skills?
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
06. January 2020 22:51:08


"If I understood your post correctly, you suggested limiting the number of levels that Allow Destro / Orc Raider may lose to maintain their skills? Right now this number is 10 (for example, Orc-Raider studies Bravery at level 36 and can use this skill if removed to level 26). " - Yes, you understood my post correctly!
"I don’t think it can be installed as a configuration only for Destros, and perhaps it should be common to all classes." - In addition to the Destroyers, no other class has the ability to farm solo raid bosses. The imbalance of the game concerns ONLY DESTROYERS. Therefore, there is no need to change what does not interfere with MOST players. But the presence on the server of a dozen dealers, because of which most players fail to farm raid bosses in the party, significantly reduces the enjoyment of the game for most players!
"So maybe just decreasing the P.Atk multiplier for these skills?" - Changing skills will upset the balance of the game and will interfere with those players who (like me, for example) play honestly with Destroyers.
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Re: Regarding the raid system
07. January 2020 09:08:36


dragonflarex: My proposal to fix Destroyers is to make Frenzy work only if Destroyer has low HP all the way (like Final Frenzy and Final Fortress do). If they get hp over limit skill is deactivated.
And yes, only Destroyers can solo bosses and Frenzy is the main reason why.
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
07. January 2020 13:48:02


Yes, I completely agree with you guys.

Let's just hope that Admin can figure out a way to implement these fixes. Especially with setting specific skill rules, this might be a bit tricky on this client.
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
07. January 2020 17:10:37


"Yes, I totally agree with you guys." - And I do not agree! 1. If you read the advice from a member of the clan who repeatedly showed himself on the negative sides (he has seen enough of this in two years of the game), then you should consider it especially carefully. 2. The method proposed by a member of the clan that brought together people of dubious moral character can be circumvented. 3. The only acceptable solution is to bring the skills of the destructors to their current level plus one. Otherwise, there will be no positive effect.
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Re: Regarding the raid system
08. January 2020 11:07:57


Mr. Administrator, please look at today's logs of Destroyer FR1 ! He is one of those destructors whose skills exceed his level by 10 levels and which kills raid bosses alone, reducing the pleasure of the game for most players! New players will come to the server and see that the raid bosses are killed by Destroyers alone! After that, they will start looking for another server! It is necessary to trim FR1 skills and other similar Destroyers to their respective real levels!
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Re: Regarding the raid system
09. January 2020 15:10:13


FR1 and today it kills raid bosses alone ... And this disgrace will continue until the skills of the destroyers are cut off to their real level + 1!
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Re: Regarding the raid system
10. January 2020 10:50:06


I play the Necromancer. And from level 40 to level 52, I have to use level 35 skills. If you change something in the mechanics, then please add to the necromancer skills of the 52nd to the 40th.
PS. This is just a joke. Do not pay attention!
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
10. January 2020 12:25:00


Necromancers are not able to farm raid bosses alone, so there is no need to do anything with their skills. But the presence on the server of dealers in which a dozen levels were deliberately removed, with the skills remaining about this, prevents many players from honestly farming raid bosses in the party, since such destructors quickly kill most raid bosses alone! L2 - was conceived as a collective game, but these destructors kill this good idea.
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Re: Regarding the raid system
12. January 2020 17:53:37


GreenMeanMachine and today it kills raid bosses alone.
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Re: Regarding the raid system
25. January 2020 23:25:52


So I have thought about the problem here and as you already guessed, many of the solutions are impossible to implement.

Of course changing parameters like P.Atk. Bonus or reuse time is possible, but I am not sure if that is the best solution in this case.

Please continue thinking about this, because I am not happy about solo-characters being able to kill raidbosses alone.
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Re: Regarding the raid system
26. January 2020 14:44:28


Sort database copies by Destroyers. Sorting of dealers in which the ratio of SP to their level is excessively large. Manual viewing of suspicious destructors for their current levels matching their existing skills. If the differences are too great - cut skills.
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Re: Regarding the raid system
27. January 2020 17:12:16


You can check at my prompts and at the prompts of other people who want to make it more interesting to play on the server. Check for example - ErCanaro, FR1, GreenMeanMachine...
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Re: Regarding the raid system
28. January 2020 18:00:49


Quote
Administrator
... many of the solutions are impossible to implement.

...

Please continue thinking about this, because I am not happy about solo-characters being able to kill raidbosses alone.
I tend to agree with the previous posts: we may consider 2 aspects, as follows. Both would require further breakdown/feasibility study by the admin team (as, I guess, players may not have all the details to assess options).

1) temporarily / interim solution: to limit the impact (ability to farm in that way) only to those level, where Destroyers learn respective skills...
by means, as described above, of some sort of database-direct updates to adjust level of skills to the respective character level; If stored procedures are used to retrieve Player's profiles, capping may be introduced there.

2) permanent one: fully depends on the platform server is on (PTS / Java) and capabilities Admin team has or is willing to get (e.g. look for and buy a bespoke fix somewhere, etc.).
just to kick off the discussion here, if its PTS, alter Raid's AI to instantly dispel Frenzy (or all buffs) of the attacker - as soon as major discrepancy in Char level-buffs ON-Current HP-.... is found, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28.01.2020 18:04:09 by occupat.
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
29. January 2020 19:15:12


I think this is a major change in the mechanic.
Look at this:
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
30. January 2020 10:36:49


Quote
SlshoK
I think this is a major change in the mechanic.
Look at this:[i.ibb.co]
Why is it a major? It would impact only one class in very particular gameplay scenario, not more not less. That would be a sniper-hit-fix. Any public thoughts / reasons behind?

Contrary, things like "C4 drop database; L2Java (with own formulas of everything); bespoke adaptation of one build to another ('this quest is disabled in this chronicle'); etc." actually make a major change in mechanics, which affects all players and during most of the game-play time...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30.01.2020 10:38:38 by occupat.
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
31. January 2020 18:12:35


"I think this is a major change in the mechanic." - Not! This is not a serious change in mechanics since it only affects: 1. SOME destructors (and the rest of the classes and professions will not affect). 2. Only those dealers who use not the absolute balance of the game, in a fraudulent dishonest way, farm Raid Bosses alone. Most dealers will not be affected. I have a destroyer of the 50th level. He has the skills of the 49th level. And most players do not merge destructors into 10 level!
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Re: Regarding the raid system
31. January 2020 18:31:11


Hello everyone!

I would like to thanks everybody for the warm welcome I got joining this server. I'm not going to bore you with my life story so I am going to get exactly to the point. One important thing I would like to mention is that I am still "new" here but I feel some of you are wrong in the way you see this matter.

Firstly, soloing raid bosses shouldn't be a punishable matter or even something bad since, as far as I know, this server is 100% retail without any other custom adds. Having this in mind you all can imagine that back in the gold days of C3 on official servers(such as Korea/NA) and other private retail servers (Dex is a good example) the same thing was possible. It's not something that deserves to be punished, in my oppinion. I'm not exactly sure but I'd like to believe that if this was possible 17/18 years ago than this is how it meant to be. This game is so complex that putting so many strings and stuff together, you can do such things as, yeah, beating bosses solo.

Secondly, I am one person that got helped through getting xp by one of these Orc Raiders/Destroyer. Yet, that was my choice! Going the hard way and do every step like in books OR Take the fast way and maybe regret it more later when you see how big lvl you are / how little items you have.
I don't see it like a bad thing; I see it like a good thing for the community and I beg my pardon if I dare to say something wrong since I am so young on this server and family.

It happened so many times going through common zones made me see ALIVE bosses between lvl 20~40 for hours during the middle of the day. That's the point when I don't understand what's the problem with the orcs. Literally they kill bosses when no one is around and half of the cases they help newbies; what's so wrong?

I took myself the privilege to speak with one of the "Bad guys" who beats bosses solo and after I told him that he really helped me going some though times in this game, he said:
<<
Today at 7:07 PM
that was my initial need
to make this server feel alive
the right way
>>

Also, I would like to add that 3/5 cases we beated bosses on the map for the EXP+SP, he couldn't do it alone. It required 1 or 2 or 3 people who had to engange into doing it winking smiley

I just say it in my case and I take everything on me if any others have different thoughts but: 7/10 cases, the destroyers will help new people and from that 7 cases, maybe 3/4 players will stay on this server. In my oppinion, that number is pretty decent.

Have a wonderful weekend and happy hunting!
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Re: Regarding the raid system
01. February 2020 09:08:37


Sorry but I can't name it "Help". It is just ruining gameplay for people. Lineage 2 is not about kicking dolls named RaidBosses.
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
01. February 2020 22:55:19


Hello,

Interesting topic you guys have here.

Now, first off , what I don't understand is why long time players on this server , who should be level 70 by now , are complaining about level 20~40 raid bosses,
since apparently, like the guy who started this topic, you have used this method yourselves.

The exciting question is: are you all willing to make a list of chars you have leveled up using this method to have them submited and deleveled and items taken from them, because : "it's not fair and it's ruining gameplay" ?
Or do you want it to stop for others, seeing how you have benefited from it?

Secondly, the only two people, that I can make of, who are truly low level, me included, that wrote on this topic don't seem to have a problem, nor did they complain about it.
I, for example, am barely reaching level 22 right now and have never used this method, nor do I plan to use it any time soon but still I don't see a problem with it.

Quote
Trust
Sorry but I can't name it "Help". It is just ruining gameplay for people. Lineage 2 is not about kicking dolls named RaidBosses.

Respectfully, I disagree. Lineage 2 is about what I want it to be. Not what you tell me it's about. That's why we have diversity.
Maybe some like doing quests, others like killing raid bosses.
I say : To each his own.
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
02. February 2020 17:32:34


"Perhaps some people like to complete quests, others like to kill raid bosses. I say: to each his own. "- I would like to kill raid bosses IF IF THEY WERE! We saw one more witness that destructors kill raid bosses alone ... That's not news. Over the two years of the game, I have seen this many times. However, the problem is that this witness is half a false witness! It's almost impossible to find unkillable raid bosses on the server! They are almost all killed by such Destroyers! He writes a lie that he often sees live raid bosses! They stay alive for a very short time! You come running to the party after learning that the raid boss is alive, and he is either already killed or he is finished off alone by the destructor! My destructor of the 50th level has the skills of the 49th level. If someone does not believe - I can put a screenshot. I have never dealt with such vile and bad deeds, as mentioned here. I have an honest destroyer. But specifically for the raid boss trip, I merged my spellhever from level 40 (getting a second profession and all level 40 skills) to level 32 to run them on raid bosses in a party with someone. And I have found parties many times. And it turned out, on average, of the four raid bosses that we wanted to farm, three were already killed or in the process of killing (which the scouts told us about). As a result, finding a party for the raid boss and running around in the hope of finding a live raid boss turned out to be a stupid waste of time. And again I pump the spellheart (already on mobs) to the level from which I stupidly leaked it. I think that I will not be mistaken if I say that about 80% of raid bosses on this server are killed by lonely Destroyers. Which makes the game less interesting for honest players. And those who oppose in order to improve the game by prohibiting the merging of destructors by more than three levels (like Gracia) or better by one - just either play with such destroyers or have friends who shake them with such destroyers and share it with them drop from raid bosses. I bring to the Administration the desires of Most players who want an honest and interesting game. It is necessary to stop lawlessness and outrage with the murder of raid bosses by Destroyers alone!
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Re: Regarding the raid system
02. February 2020 17:45:08


“I don’t understand why the players on this server, who should already be level 70, complain about raid bosses of level 20-40” - I explain why you don’t understand this: you probably never experience serious problems in real lives that do not allow you to enter the game often and for a long time. But some people have problems in real life. That is why the leader of my clan that I created) still has not risen above level 50. I can’t play often and for a long time. Moreover, there was a period when I could enter the game very rarely and for this period I transferred the leadership in the clan to one of my fellow clan members. By now, he has returned it to me. Not all people have the same life ... By the way, I can accept Russian-speaking players into my clan - there are free places in the clan.
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Re: Regarding the raid system
02. February 2020 19:36:01


Quote
sirLeroi
"Perhaps some people like to complete quests, others like to kill raid bosses. I say: to each his own. "- I would like to kill raid bosses IF IF THEY WERE! We saw one more witness that destructors kill raid bosses alone ... That's not news. Over the two years of the game, I have seen this many times. However, the problem is that this witness is half a false witness! It's almost impossible to find unkillable raid bosses on the server! They are almost all killed by such Destroyers! He writes a lie that he often sees live raid bosses! They stay alive for a very short time! You come running to the party after learning that the raid boss is alive, and he is either already killed or he is finished off alone by the destructor! My destructor of the 50th level has the skills of the 49th level. If someone does not believe - I can put a screenshot. I have never dealt with such vile and bad deeds, as mentioned here. I have an honest destroyer. But specifically for the raid boss trip, I merged my spellhever from level 40 (getting a second profession and all level 40 skills) to level 32 to run them on raid bosses in a party with someone. And I have found parties many times. And it turned out, on average, of the four raid bosses that we wanted to farm, three were already killed or in the process of killing (which the scouts told us about). As a result, finding a party for the raid boss and running around in the hope of finding a live raid boss turned out to be a stupid waste of time. And again I pump the spellheart (already on mobs) to the level from which I stupidly leaked it. I think that I will not be mistaken if I say that about 80% of raid bosses on this server are killed by lonely Destroyers. Which makes the game less interesting for honest players. And those who oppose in order to improve the game by prohibiting the merging of destructors by more than three levels (like Gracia) or better by one - just either play with such destroyers or have friends who shake them with such destroyers and share it with them drop from raid bosses. I bring to the Administration the desires of Most players who want an honest and interesting game. It is necessary to stop lawlessness and outrage with the murder of raid bosses by Destroyers alone!


I am sorry, you made absolutely no sense. Maybe it's just bad translation or the lack of basic english, but you often contradict yourself in your statements.
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
03. February 2020 14:14:12


"you had absolutely no meaning." “The point is to stop the Raid Boss farm by lone Destroyers.” “Maybe it's just a bad translation” - I translate using an online translator. So please send complaints about the quality of the translation to Google. "or lack of basic English" - I laughed for a long time at what you wrote! ))) If I write programs in several programming languages, then I cannot but be present! I freely read the documentation in English. But I do not write colloquial phrases on it and do not speak it (I speak Russian and Japanese). "but you often contradict yourself in your statements." - hand-face ... If you can find at least one contradiction in at least one of my posts, I will give you 50 recipes. Write a quote and character name!
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Re: Regarding the raid system
04. February 2020 10:22:23


Quote
Now, first off , what I don't understand is why long time players on this server , who should be level 70 by now , are complaining about level 20~40 raid bosses, since apparently, like the guy who started this topic, you have used this method yourselves. The exciting question is: are you all willing to make a list of chars you have leveled up using this method to have them submited and deleveled and items taken from them, because : "it's not fair and it's ruining gameplay" ? Or do you want it to stop for others, seeing how you have benefited from it?

It is easy to make someone apologies without any proves and with axiomatic sudgestions. We have no destroyers in our clan and even while we had one we never used such exploit.
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
04. February 2020 10:47:47


I confirm the words that Trust wrote. Neither I, nor members of my clan, nor my friends, have ever seen behind this bad and dishonest affair of the SevenCrafts clan destructors. Although I do not have the best attitude towards this clan (this is due to the way Oren was taken by them and the fact that my former clan member deleted and banned my posts in the Russian-speaking branch (he was still in their clan then) and for some other reasons), but the fact that they have at least once farm raid bosses dishonestly cannot be reproached. They always honestly farm raid bosses and do not interfere with the farm of other players. This is a positive quality of their game they have.
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Re: Regarding the raid system
04. February 2020 11:45:21


Quote
sirLeroi
It's almost impossible to find unkillable raid bosses on the server! They are almost all killed by such Destroyers! He writes a lie that he often sees live raid bosses!

Here is one contradiction - I expect 50 recipes.
        

Re: Regarding the raid system
06. February 2020 08:17:40


Among 759 posts it was not possible to find a single post with a contradiction (unreasonable post)! And why am I not surprised ?! There is no contradiction in the above quote. The normal party for farm raid bosses is going to be long enough. So “It’s almost impossible to find” and “almost all of them were killed by such destroyers” - the truth has been repeatedly verified by me and my co-clans and my friends.
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